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Why wait till day 8 to Circumcise?

 Circumcision!  Now that’s a word that will get every man to squirm!  I’ve been reading through Leviticus slowly and have been picking up on several of the unique laws that were put into place.  I already went over some of the dietary laws in my blog named Clean versus Unclean food – why? a few days back, so here is some info on the circumcision time frame.

I had heard before that God knows everything, and He knew that if you circumcised before day 8 the child would have a greater risk of not having proper blood clotting.  That’s really all I heard.  After the 7th day, blood clotting worked best, so wait till then, or as God put it to the Israelites, “On the 8th day, circumcise the boy!”  This was simply not enough info to satisfy my hunger for knowledge.  Soooo, I did a little searching, and found this website that provides a bit more info a few paragraphs down.  It even has a graph!

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2204

Enjoy the free research and the jolt to your brain after you read it and now have more knowledge!

God bless,

Jeff

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33 Responses

  1. Hmmmm very interestin. I like your blog. Thanks.

  2. Thanks Mer Pints!

  3. How about waiting until the boy is oldest to decide for himself before attacking his genitals with a blade?

    • Culturally, psychologically and medically, there are many arguments for and against circumcision. In the end, it’s a parental decision, much like getting vaccinations or minor surgeries like tubes in the ears. I disagree there is any “attacking” or even overt violence associated with the procedure now. I have a 6 year old and have made the decision for him long ago.
      I would say that if a law of some type was passed banning this practice, then most adults would choose to NOT have the procedure due to pain and the memory of that pain. I had my tonsils out at 35 and wish I had had them out at a young age. It was tough.

  4. What are you saying tree63fan? That it might one day, in rare circumstances, be medically necessary to get circumcised, therefore it’s beneficial to mutilate a male? Sorry about your tonsils, but no one really misses their tonsils once they’re gone. It’s not an apt comparison.

    It’s not a parents decision to circumcise anymore than it’s a parents decision to amputate a babies limbs.

    • Thanks for continuing the discussion Greg….
      I did not need to have my tonsils out. It was a choice for convenience since I dealt with tonsil stones. I would have much preferred to have just had them removed at a young age so I never had to deal with them slowly deteriorating in my throat…(FYI it was also my choice to have hernia surgery before it was truly even needed. I was told I was born with the inguinal hernia…boy that was a surgery that would have been nice to have just had done when I was a kid!)
      Maybe I’m being unfair not understanding where you are coming from and what your history is?
      In a nutshell what I’m saying is that circumcision to me is no big deal. I have no memory of it and I have no idea of what (if anything) I have “lost” with not having foreskin. All I do know is that it’s very easy to keep myself clean. I do know that some males have a hard time keeping themselves clean especially at young ages and these males don’t have foreskins to deal with. Either way, with or without a foreskin, a male CAN keep themselves reasonably clean, reasonable easily. I have no problem either way.
      To better compare the practice, think of ear piercing or any number of other “ritualistic” practices from around the world. I would never say that the stretching of a females neck over many years, nose piercings, branding, tattoos, or any number of “rights of passage” are 1) Mutilation or 2) Not a parents right. Most of these are cultural actions. I guess I would challenge you that if you think piercing a little girl’s ear is okay and circumcision is not, then there is a problem with your logic. If you equally feel both are mutilation, then you are being consistent.
      Culturally, I understand that circumcision comes directly from the Biblical perspective of making the Israelites stand out and be different. This tradition was passed on and picked up by various people groups and we have what we have today. If you want to dive into medical “for and against” just let me know and I’ll gladly research it.
      I just completely disagree that it’s 1) Mutilation and 2) Not a parents right. It is NOT mutilation, because if it were doctors would be prosecuted for performing circumcision. And since, again, the law allows it, it IS most definitely a parents right.
      Also, I would have to argue against your last statement on amputation. If there was a decision to make for a child, then ultimately the parent is the one to make that decision. I realize you were implying “just chopping off a limb for no reason”, but there IS a reason for circumcision. You just happen to disagree with it and that is completely acceptable and within your rights!
      Lastly, to tie this into my post. Please note that my post was all about showing one instance of many where God showed knowledge that we did not have available at the time (at least not easily). God knew the right timing to have the Israelites perform circumcisions and he told them.
      With respect,
      Jeff

  5. Your choice to have your tonsils out was YOUR CHOICE. It could have been your parent’s choice IF YOU WERE HAVING PROBLEMS at a young age. That would have been fair, given that your tonsils don’t provide a useful function. Foreskin, on the other hand, doesn’t cause most males any serious problems, and provides benefits during intercourse, making it more comfortable and pleasurable for both partners involved.

    If you had problems with ear infections, would you wish that your parents had cut off your ears?

    Circumcision is “no big deal” to you. Alright. Some people may feel cutting out tongues is no big deal. They would say “Cut’em out while children are young.”

    Having no idea what you have “lost” is part of the problem. Nobody has the right to take something from you that was granted by nature.

    The cleaning argument is a load of Garbage. If someone can’t clean themself properly in the shower, chances are they won’t function very well in society. And what about males on other continents like Europe where genital cutting isn’t so common? They don’t seem to have hygienic problems. Personally, I would bear the burden of cleaning my body parts verses having them amputated.

    You can’t compare forceful circumcision on infants to consensual ear piercings. You can’t justify what our so called “civilized” culture does to males in relation to other cultures.

    The original circumcision described in the bible was just a nic on the genitals. Around comes the Victorian era and circumcision becomes a means to control sexuality. Circumcision has been promoted as a method to control masterbation by deadening a males genitals. There has never been a credible medical argument for circumcision. Some doctors have provided a service in direct contradiction with the hippocratic oath that they took.

    Some people would disagree that cutting off parts of a females genitals is mutilation. How far do you think that argument would go in our society?

    Doctors aren’t usually prosecuted simply because this type of assault is tolerated in society, just the same way way that female circumcision was tolerated in some societies. However, there are some instances of doctors being successfully sued for performing this procedure (in the USA).

    There are some decisions that I think a parent can’t make. Is it okay for a parent to cut off an arm? How about just a finger?

    Of course it’s acceptable for me to disagree with opinions on circumcision. The real question is, is it okay for a parent or doctor to act on their opinion based on tradition instead of Science?

    I would like to note that in your last paragraph you are making an assertion without providing any reason or proof.

    I have a question for you: Why did God create males with highly sensitive foreskin that needs to be surgically removed? Did He make a mistake?

    Sincerely Yours,
    Greg Valcourt

    • Greg,
      I feel you misread some of what I wrote. I apologize that my wording was not clear…I said it was NOT a problem to clean having foreskin, the same as it’s not a problem to clean without foreskin.
      [I do know that some males have a hard time keeping themselves clean especially at young ages and these males don’t have foreskins to deal with. Either way, with or without a foreskin, a male CAN keep themselves reasonably clean, reasonable easily. I have no problem either way.]

      You feel very strongly that circumcision is akin to amputation and I disagree. Respectfully, we aren’t going to change each others minds. Maybe they don’t do it in Canada, but in the states many baby girls nowadays get their ears pierced at 1-2 years old or less….At that age is it consensual? Personally, I don’t think so…But it’s not “amputation” as you define it, so it must be alright. You ask me where do I draw the line?…I draw the line at what is legal. As I mentioned, circumcision is not against the law (in the USA) and it is a parent’s right. You have shown nothing to combat that. You could look at any surgical procedure known to man and find someone who has been sued over it. Scientific conclusions are constantly changing as new research is done. Last I checked, laws are a product of the people, science doesn’t dictate law, people do. As the will of the people change, a law can change. If that occurs I will abide by it. [ie I completely disagree with abortion in any form, but it’s legal so all I can do is simply argue my opinion as you are doing. I can vote for public servants who agree with me and hope that one day the laws change.]

      You appear more studied on this subject regarding biblical circumcision and current circumcision. Knowing today’s medical advances I would be surprised if circumcision methods hadn’t changed over time, but I am not an expert at all.

      Obviously, God did not make a mistake. Biblical circumcision had nothing to do with health as far as I know…My last paragraph is based on faith (assuming you were questioning God’s Word and my belief in it). If anything…God declared that circumcision was okay. In various translations of the Bible, I cannot find a translation noting a “[nick] on the genitals”.
      “Each male among you must be circumcised. You must cut off the flesh of your foreskin as a sign of the covenant between me and you. From generation to generation, every male child must be circumcised on the eighth day after his birth.” (in Gen 17)…That is the typical translation…

      I appreciate your opinion, but we obviously completely disagree with one another and are dedicated to our stances.

      Blessings!
      Jeff

    • Hello Greg,
      I’m quite late to this discussion and only came across it after reading another Time magazine article on circumcision, which then led me to search for verifying info I had learned previously about the importance of circumcising on the 8th day.

      We had a son 14 years ago who I birthed at home. We had not really thought much about circumcision and were discouraged to do so by the doctor who delivered him, unless our faith really demanded it. We did a lot of research — all of which I’m sure you’ve seen — which made my husband really wonder what he had “lost” as a baby and, ultimately, we decided not to circumcise. For us, that was a big mistake. Despite our best efforts, our son’s foreskin did not properly retract and he had to undergo medical circumcision surgery at age 5. At that point, I cannot tell you how much we wished we had just given him that “little nip” at 8 days old! It is a full-blown and very painful surgery (as you can imagine) and the recovery for a 5-year-old is quite traumatic. There was no “choice” on his part at either time. Perhaps ours is a rare occurrence but believe me, it DOES happen.

      I believe there is some pretty compelling evidence to suggest that circumcised men are at lower risk for STD’s. I’ve also heard from those who have cared for elderly men that hygienic care of the foreskin is not always easy and at that point it can become a problem. So while I know there are arguments for and against — and certainly millions have no problem with it — like the other Levitical laws, I believe it was designed to protect God’s people, particularly at that time. You can be sure we will strongly suggest that our grandsons will be circumcised!

      Our biggest takeaway from all of this was the importance of not judging those who make a decision either way. As parents, we’re called upon to make many difficult decisions for our kids with far-reaching consequences that are truly unknown. It’s never an easy job! I only know I’m incredibly thankful for the existence of God’s Word (and my easy access to it) to guide me on the path. It has never steered me wrong.

  6. Hi I read your comments with interest and thought I would offer this as a source of information to enlighten you from a medical standpoint. The interesting factor here is, Abraham would not have had any knowledge of vitamin K coagulant being present in the child’s blood at at a greater quantity on the 8th day, as we are aware of in our time. This shows that this knowledge was only present in the superior mind of our one true God. I hope you find this interesting.

    Q.
    In Genesis 17:12, God commanded Abraham to circumcise baby boys on the eighth day of their lives. Why day eight? Is there any good, scientific rationale behind such a command?
    A.
    The faith of each individual Christian rests upon the bedrock foundation of the Bible’s inspiration. If the Bible is of human origin, then it logically follows that the facts and doctrines found therein are only as reliable as human knowledge can be. However, if the biblical records were provided by the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:20-21), then we have every reason to believe that the facts and doctrines recorded therein are free of those imperfections and blemishes that characterize all purely human efforts.
    The Greek word used in the New Testament to express the concept of inspiration istheopneustos, and itself derives from two roots—theos, God, and pneustos, breathed (from pneo, to blow or breathe). Theopneustos, therefore, would mean “God-breathed.” The word implies an influence from without producing effects that are beyond natural powers. The proper view of inspiration often is referred to as being verbal (word-for-word) and plenary (complete). This concept suggests that men wrote what God directed, without errors or mistakes, yet with their own personalities reflected in their writings.
    A close examination of the Bible reveals startling proof of its inspiration. Sometimes that proof comes in the form of prophecy (always minutely foretold and completely fulfilled). Sometimes the proof comes in the form of scientific facts that were placed in the divine record hundreds or thousands of years before they were known to the modern scientific mind. This brief article deals with the latter—an important piece of scientific foreknowledge found with the biblical text that was completely unknown to man until fairly recently.
    In Genesis 17:12, God specifically directed Abraham to circumcise newborn males on theeighth day. Why the eighth day? In 1935, professor H. Dam proposed the name “vitamin K” for the factor in foods that helped prevent hemorrhaging in baby chicks. We now know vitamin K is responsible for the production (by the liver) of the element known as prothrombin. If vitamin K is deficient, there will be a prothrombin deficiency and hemorrhaging may occur. Oddly, it is only on the fifth through the seventh days of the newborn male’s life that vitamin K (produced by bacteria in the intestinal tract) is present in adequate quantities. Vitamin K, coupled with prothrombin, causes blood coagulation, which is important in any surgical procedure. Holt and McIntosh, in their classic work, Holt Pediatrics, observed that a newborn infant has “peculiar susceptibility to bleeding between the second and fifth days of life…. Hemorrhages at this time, though often inconsequential, are sometimes extensive; they may produce serious damage to internal organs, especially to the brain, and cause death from shock and exsanguination” (1953, pp. 125-126). Obviously, then, if vitamin K is not produced in sufficient quantities until days five through seven, it would be wise to postpone any surgery until some time after that. But why did God specify day eight?
    On the eighth day, the amount of prothrombin present actually is elevated above one-hundred percent of normal—and is the only day in the male’s life in which this will be the case under normal conditions. If surgery is to be performed, day eight is the perfect day to do it. Vitamin K and prothrombin levels are at their peak. The chart below, patterned after one published by S.I. McMillen, M.D., in his book, None of These Diseases, portrays this in graphic form.

    Circumcision on 8th day

    Dr. McMillen observed:
    We should commend the many hundreds of workers who labored at great expense over a number of years to discover that the safest day to perform circumcision is the eighth. Yet, as we congratulate medical science for this recent finding, we can almost hear the leaves of the Bible rustling. They would like to remind us that four thousand years ago, when God initiatedcircumcision with Abraham….
    Abraham did not pick the eighth day after many centuries of trial-and-error experiments. Neither he nor any of his company from the ancient city of Ur in the Chaldees ever had been circumcised. It was a day picked by the Creator of vitamin K (1984, p. 93).
    Moses’ information, as recorded in Genesis 17:12, not only was scientifically accurate, but was years ahead of its time. How did Moses have access to such information? The answer, of course, is provided by the apostle Paul in 2 Timothy 3:16—“Every scripture is inspired of God.”

  7. came across this discussion and while i haven’t done a ton of research on this topic i have done some and thought i’d put my 2 cents in. i’ll point out that i’m an atheist so w/e it says in the bible about the topic is completely irrelevant to me except for the historical perspective that this practice has taken place for thousands of years. to what extent abraham et al circumcised is clearly unclear but it’s clear that something similar was done. my first point is to greg. please use caution in your arguments. you have a strong opinion on the matter but it is mostly just that, an opinion. you talk as if every statement is proven fact. for every doctor you have to “prove” your point, i can find one who will argue against you. i can find theologians from all types of religions who will argue both sides. you mentioned that sex is more pleasurable, i would argue that is also a matter of opinion. that is something very difficult to prove medically and every study i would imagine would produce different results based on who you ask and what their situation is. sorry for walking the fence on this and just playing “moderator.” i am undecided of what my choice will be when i have children so i cannot take a side just yet. if there was a 100% proven answer then there would be no debate. if i could prove 100% that there is no god then there would still be a debate ;) my point is this ‘ritual’ has ties to religion, culture and medicine. you will be hard pressed, even with legitimate scientific proof, to make everyone agree with you. the debate is healthy, i’m glad that people care enough to think about it instead of doing what everyone else does. the greatest thought any man has ever had is socrates giving us his “socratic method”, which is QUESTION EVERYTHING. you make the decision that is right for you based on your beliefs and no one can fault you.

    • Brian how can u not believe in God Almighty? Is in it hard not to believe in God. Look around you God is every where. Search the history of the scriptures and you’ll see that everything in the Bible is accurate and up to date from Genesis to Revelation. Jesus died for you and for the world. Why is it so hard to understand that, is sad how man wants to take credit for creating the world, and how they want to be above God. If God was a fable then everyone would go on their own way and not follow it and did whatever they pleased. Moses, Isaiah, jeremiah, king david, prophesised about The Lord Jesus Christ, now what are the odds of that? is like filling the state of texas with a dollar coins facing up what are the odds of finding the one dollar coin facing down in one try. Psalm 14:1 says “The fool says in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.”

  8. Brian you say what Greg is saying, is just an opinion, but are actually proving facts, and if a well educated doctor Dr. McMillen talks about the facts about circumcision, and compares them with the bible there are pretty strong and firm facts God is the ultimate healer not humans. Brian we can argue back and forth but in reality and doesn’t matter what me and you or Greg or the doctor thinks. Is about what God the Creator thinks me and you sooner or later we will bow down to him whether you like or not and you will fear him and tremble before him. I can find many passages and versus in the Bible that will contradict your wisdom and every scientists or philosopher, or any one smart in the world God says there is no one good in the earth not even Christians but yet While we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Come to Jesus Brian God is not a joke or a being to take in vain, Bible says Jesus is the way the truth and the life, cant get no plainer than that, believe and confess with your mouth that Jesus rose from the dead and believe with your heart that he is the Son of the Highest and thou shalt be saved. I promise you, you’ll be a different person God is love Brian not evil, evil can’t tempt him bible says he loves you before you were even born, you have a purpose, just like me I was a drug addict and a gangbanger, watched porn partied. But I came to Christ and made me knew.Bible says behold i make old things new. Come to him i dare you test him with your heart and he will heal you and he will reveal himself to you. He is wisdom, power, life and love which beat the human law and theories. Repent Brian and you shall be set free from the law of sin God loves you buddy. Proverbs 8:17 I love them that love me, and those that seek me early shall find me. God bless Brian may the Lord touch your heart one day.

    • Thanks for the comments Marcos.
      Most Atheists are simply on a path seeking knowledge. We must pray for them, that God will place people and life circumstances in their lives that will point them to the Creator. “For I was blind, but now I see.” We can be a part of that too, thank you for your witness.

  9. Thank you for this information. I was wondering what the significance was to waiting until a child was 8 days old. I still don’t agree 100%, just because I belive it is safer for a child to have a precedure done while in the hospital and under a doctors care. You never know if something could go wrong.

    And I have to say it is no mutilation. The reason I decided on having it done to my boys was because of hearing one story. Their Grandfather had his circumsion done in Vietnam on the field. He said it was the most painful thing he had ever been threw. I would never want my sons to go threw something like that. I love them way too much.

  10. Brian (July 15), I suppose you would say I have *strong opinion* if I told you that new borns generally shouldn’t have their arms cut off.

    Macros, what evidence is there that God is the ultimate healer? How come medical procedures heal patients while prayer does not?

    How do you know that: a) there is a creator, b) it matters what he thinks and c) he is the one described by your particular religion?

    You go on to claim that God says “there is no one good in the earth”. This is one of the most revolting claims of Christianity, that we are all “sinners” and need his help,
    conveniently by obeying the dictates of fellow men and paying tithes.

    Yes, tree63fan, some atheists are on a path seeking knowledge. Hence, we’re skeptical.
    Show us the evidence. You don’t decide to believe in lepricons simply because of
    “life circumstances” do you?

    RooBaby, sometimes medical procedures are neccisary, but they generally aren’t performed preemptively “oh, we’ll just give this baby a pacemaker now in case he needs one later.”.

    • Hi Greg,
      Glad you’re back!

      You bring up a common argument against Christianity, and I agree with it….the argument of religion. Religion itself can be quite detestable. Religion is not what the Bible says saves us. Contextually, there is no one good on earth because of the standard in which we are held. In one of its simplest forms, the Ten Commandments, are that standard. Contextually, we see over and over that holy, holy, holy equates to moral perfection in thought, word and deed. This is far from the false idea that one is “saved” through following men and paying tithes. We are saved through Christ’s payment for our sin (the breaking of God’s law).
      You have probably heard the analogy of the courtroom. We broke God’s law. We are guilty and headed for God’s prison, hell. Jesus stepped in and paid our fine so our case can be dismissed. We must repent and trust in the Savior to complete the “legal” process. Without the Savior, we can’t payoff the judge with “good works” or money/tithes or by following Joe Schmo who says this and that. The sentence is carried out, done. Do not pass go. Do we have the Savior or not? is the simple question.
      In today’s world, this holy, holy, holy standard has been replaced with each man’s own idea of a moral standard. It’s different for everyone and it causes problems when there is no overriding Truth. What is truth? It’s a common question.
      I’m curious why the idea that we are all sinners is revolting? It’s seem quite apparent to me that we have all messed up and we all hold secret evil desires tucked away in our minds, no matter who we are. Evil is an obtuse word, but in the end, no matter what your moral standard there are going to be many areas of agreement.
      You feel it’s “convenient” that God provided a path to heaven, freely. You describe it as religion though and seem to equate it to “doing something”, and that is your error. The error is judging Christianity by sinful man’s actions and not by the standard set forth throughout all scripture. Typically, from this statement the Atheist will ignore the meaning and go straight to some out of context jibe about Old testament ceremonial law or judgment, please do so if you feel the need to deflect the seriousness of the conversation. I don’t say this to provoke you, but because I care and take your opinions seriously…
      Greg, I was the skeptic of skeptics for 27 years. My parents couldn’t give me answers and my friends and college had nothing to add spiritually. It was life circumstances that led to me the evidence that was in front of me all the time. For this reason, that is why you do not see the evidence, I’m am sure of it. I couldn’t see it until 1) I allowed my selfishness and pride to go to the wayside just a little. 2) I humbled myself and “let” myself think. For me it was in a moment of joy, not pain. I was sitting in my lazy boy reflecting for some reason on all the crap in my life, realizing that I wasn’t the one who got me through it. I’M JUST NOT THAT GOOD. I don’t heal cancer three times, save marriages, allow myself to forgive unconditionally, and decide one day that porn and lust are bad things when I enjoyed them for many, many years. I don’t do those things, I live for me. But not that day. It was a paradigm shift of huge proportions and it became obvious over the next few months that God had picked me for something and that time in the lazyboy was when he flipped the switch.
      That’s the evidence. It’s not the evidence you or I were seeking. It’s not how everyone comes to the Lord. There is no 5 step plan.
      I hope that is something you haven’t heard before, because I think it’s what I would have felt sounded logical back when I was an Atheist. Life circumstances are very subjective, as for me, they were very convincing. Once I began researching Christianity with an open mind, it made sense, but it sure didn’t before that. It took me about 2 years after that lazy boy moment to give my life to Christ. Now, instead of using the fact that 5 billion Chinese don’t know Christ as a reason that God doesn’t exist, I ache for 5 billion Chinese who don’t know God as I now do.
      As for flying spaghetti monsters, why would I want or need to believe in one? If there is an answer, let’s research it. That’s what I did with Christianity as well as other world religions.
      Blessings to you Greg.

  11. Tree63fan,

    If Jesus paid the fine, then why must we “repent”. The fine is paid. And why is it necessary to pay a fine for someone else’s actions (Adman& Eve). What kind of benevolent God would blame descendents for crimes of the ancestor? And if God is all powerful, couldn’t he just forgive us without the need for killing his only son (who was resurrected, so it wasn’t THAT big a sacrafic).

    There is no “holy, holy, holy standard”. Truth is fact, but there are also competing motivations, which leads to conflict. What you’re trying to do is tie an omnipotent being to your point of view and cliam that it supercedes everyone else’s point of view.

    The idea that we are all sinners is revolting because it’s proposed solution is subjugation of the mind.

    I didn’t say that it was convenient that *God* provided a path to heaven. I said it’s convenient that *man* proposed a solution that involved being obedient to proclaimer.

    I highly doubt you want to set the standard by scripture which includes taking slaves, infedelity, and mass murder (read your bible, it’s quite a dirty book).

    I didn’t ask *why* we dont’ see the evidence. I asked *for* the evidence. Please provide.

    Your right, you didn’t heal your cancer. Either your doctor did or it went into spontaneous remission.

    You give yourself too little credit. You did save your mariage. A relationship like marriage is an interaction between two people, and if it survived it’s because *you* pulled through in the rough times.

    I disagree that lust is a bad thing. The future of the human race depends on it.

    If you want to seriously research Christianity, read the Bible from cover to cover literally.

    The statistics about who believes in what don’t matter. What people believe doesn’t change facts.

    If you wouldn’t want or need to believe in a flying spaghetti monster, why whould you want or need to believe in a sky fairy?

    What other world religions did you research and what did you learn from them?

    Cheers,
    Greg

    • Greg,
      This is a long response. If you read this via email, sometimes it cuts portions out. Blessings! Jeff
      ————————————–
      If Jesus paid the fine, then why must we “repent”. The fine is paid. And why is it necessary to pay a fine for someone else’s actions (Adman& Eve). What kind of benevolent God would blame descendents for crimes of the ancestor? And if God is all powerful, couldn’t he just forgive us without the need for killing his only son (who was resurrected, so it wasn’t THAT big a sacrafic).
      Answer: Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden, from paradise. From that point forward we were all cursed whether we want to admit it or not. If you have ever broken any of the Ten Commandments, then they are YOUR actions. YOUR actions today will help or hurt your descendants whether it is fair or not. You seem to have a flawed opinion of God. He doesn’t just love. He is righteous, jealous, wrathful, merciful, giving and loving among other things. God is a holy, holy, holy judge. He would be corrupt if he did NOT punish disobedience.
      It’s your opinion that it wasn’t that big of a sacrifice. To be God and then to choose to separate yourself from “godhood” and take on and feel the punishment that all people would feel for all of their sins is a big deal to me. It’s the perfect example of a Father dying for his children. You have a misguided idea of what Jesus did on the cross. Jesus was fully God and fully man. A man cannot take away the sins of the world by himself. God’s holiness precludes him of being able to be in the presence of sin. Jesus lived a holy life, which was called for in the Old Testament. God came here, as a man, and put his money where his mouth was. He lived righteously to show what it looked like, and he then gave his life as an offering of love. During his crucifixion the Trinity was in a sense broken, while all the sin of the world, past, present and future was put on Jesus and God’s wrath fell on him upon death. God is eternal, so he cannot die, it was the fully man Jesus that died.

      There is no “holy, holy, holy standard”. Truth is fact, but there are also competing motivations, which leads to conflict. What you’re trying to do is tie an omnipotent being to your point of view and cliam that it supercedes everyone else’s point of view.
      Answer: You can’t say there is no holy, holy, holy standard. You would have to know everything to be able to say that. I believe there is a holy, holy, holy standard. If truth is fact, and man’s idea of truth quite often changes historically, then it isn’t really truth.
      No, I’m “tying my point of view” to the words of an omnipotent being. It makes no sense for me to do otherwise since I could no better control an omnipotent being than control a flood…

      The idea that we are all sinners is revolting because it’s proposed solution is subjugation of the mind.
      Comment: You are assuming that all the answers are in your mind and that cannot be proven. Your claim is just as strong as my claim that all the answers are in the bible. I contend that openness of thought is contrary to subjugation of the mind. You seem to assume that God = Delusion and you (and Hawkins) cannot know that, no one can.

      I didn’t say that it was convenient that *God* provided a path to heaven. I said it’s convenient that *man* proposed a solution that involved being obedient to proclaimer.
      Comment: And, keeping in mind the bible’s words regarding sin, condemnation and judgment, it sure is convenient, but more importantly merciful. You assume that there is no God, therefore, just as the bible says, God’s words are foolishness.

      I highly doubt you want to set the standard by scripture which includes taking slaves, infedelity, and mass murder (read your bible, it’s quite a dirty book).
      Comment: From this statement you really seem to have no idea what slavery, infidelity, mass murder, incest, and many other writings mean contextually or historically in the bible. Pick up a good commentary or two and read the NIV alongside the KJV and it will then make sense. Reading commentaries from Atheistic sites will only give you out of context and demeaning representations of scripture. If you would like to have a detailed discussion about all of your problems with the bible I welcome it. I’ve done it many times before and enjoy correcting how people have been led astray.

      I didn’t ask *why* we dont’ see the evidence. I asked *for* the evidence. Please provide.
      Answer: What? You don’t want to know why you don’t understand the evidence? You have all the same evidence, but it’s not good enough (or it’s not recognized as evidence). If you really don’t know what I’m talking about, then start with looking around at creation, “the accident” or “it’s just there”, whichever you choose to believe. It’s quite humorous how some Atheists who fought tooth and nail saying that they “don’t believe nothing created everything” are now inclined to read Hawking’s analysis that “nothing can create everything.” But…to go back to your question… I did provide the evidence per my viewpoint. If I believe what I wrote (and I do) then I cannot provide you with evidence that will be recognizable. Reread that paragraph you are referencing.

      Your right, you didn’t heal your cancer. Either your doctor did or it went into spontaneous remission.
      Comment: It was my father who dealt with cancer 3 separate times over 21 years. Then 6 years after that went into septic shock (blood infection) and survived that as well. Modern medicine saved my dad. I believe God was in control, whether my father made it or not. The point was that this life situation was one component of many that I know God used to wake me up out of my selfish, prideful state of mind. It’s a kind of Catch 22, you can’t truly see or understand God until he calls you, then the light clicks on and it’s VERY bright.

      You give yourself too little credit. You did save your mariage. A relationship like marriage is an interaction between two people, and if it survived it’s because *you* pulled through in the rough times.
      Comment: I read this sentence and smiled. I used to use the same logic on Believers while I tried to “unconvert” them from Christianity. You, You, You. Believe in yourself! I said it all and I was quite good. Certainly, my actions played a part in both the potential split up and in the reconciliation, but I can clearly, honestly and unabashedly tell you that it was in no way ME, who truly saved the marriage. Marriage involves three not two, two spouses and God. It was God, he showed himself to me through all of my life’s memories and it was like a huge gust of wind that blew off an inch of dust from the cover of my life story. I was blind and now I see. I can only pray that something similar happens to you. It’s quite amazing.

      I disagree that lust is a bad thing. The future of the human race depends on it.
      Comment: That’s funny, I like that! So, true. I should have clarified that better. I believe lust is fine within the bounds of marriage, but…we must be careful.

      If you want to seriously research Christianity, read the Bible from cover to cover literally.
      Comment: I have read the entire bible once, and am working through it a 2nd time, although I have read some portions many, many times and have not always tracked my readings. The bible is made up of various works: Historical accounts, Allegorical accounts, Poetry, Biographical accounts, Personal letters & Apocalyptic literature. I enjoy the history and biographical accounts most. To read the entire bible literally (where you take ever type of literature presented and liken it to a list of facts) would be amateur and disingenuous.
      The statistics about who believes in what don’t matter. What people believe doesn’t change facts.
      Comment: Exactly. But, the fact is that I strongly care about other people and I didn’t before.

      If you wouldn’t want or need to believe in a flying spaghetti monster, why whould you want or need to believe in a sky fairy?
      Answer: An Atheist friend of mine once stated that the more important or miraculous the claims are, the more evidence is required to believe it. I like that attitude. This means that he has not quit studying. If someone told you that you had cancer, then you would ask for proof and hopefully get it. If someone told you that you were smart, then you may not even ask for proof. If someone told you that there is a heaven and hell, then you would most likely ask why they believe that. If someone told you that you were headed to hell, then if you cared for your life, you might ask why? Why would I want to believe in anything? Because there is a good reason. It makes sense to me. I know it to be true.

      What other world religions did you research and what did you learn from them?
      Answer: To be fair, I have never practiced any other religion or belief system other than Atheism, Agnosticism or Christianity. I have read up on Buddhism, Hinduism, Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Islam, and some Eastern Mysticism (but not a lot). I studied on my own, both before I was a Christian and after. Overall, I feel the most intriguing fact I learned was that Christianity was unique in:
      1) Salvation or the afterlife was not something to be earned. It was to be accepted through repentance and trust. No Pillars, no doing good works to earn salvation or a better reincarnation etc.
      2) To my knowledge there is no other religion out there where God came to earth as a man, solely to be an example of perfection (to live out the letter of the law) and therefore be seen as worthy to take our punishment. The Father died for his children, so that we could be saved. See my very first answer at the top of this comment.

  12. “From that point forward we were all cursed whether we want to admit it or not.” <- assertion, proof required.

    "YOUR actions today will help or hurt your descendants whether it is fair or not." <- I thought your god was supposed to be just.

    "You seem to have a flawed opinion of God." <- I expressed my opinion on YOUR idea of a god.

    Righteous, jealous and wrathful conflicts with merciful, giving and loving (and benevolence). Those properties also make God less than perfect.

    "God is a holy, holy, holy judge. He would be corrupt if he did NOT punish disobedience." <- And yet he is somehow not corrupt for allowing disobedience
    to occur in the first place (in fact, he encouraged it by planting the Tree Of Knowledge in the garden).

    "Jesus was fully God and fully man." “God’s holiness precludes him of being able to be in the presence of sin.” (which
    also contradicts the belief that God is everywhere).

    A benevolent, omnipotent, all knowing God would not have to go through all those hoops (crucifixion) to forgive his creation, especially since he created
    the universe and all the rules that go with it.

    It’s as reasonable to say that there isn’t a “holy, holy, holy standard” (do you really need to use that word three times?) as it is to say there
    is no pizza as big as the moon. You can believe in a pizza as big as the moon all you want, IT DOESN’T EXIST. If “man’s idea of truth quite often changes”,
    how do you know that what you’ve been taught, including your religion, is true?

    “No, I’m ‘tying my point of view’ to the words of an omnipotent being.” – I must correct myself, you’ve aligned your point of view with a fictional
    omnipotent being that you must convince to others exists.

    “You are assuming that all the answers are in your mind and that cannot be proven.” – No. “Your claim is just as strong as my claim that all the
    answers are in the bible.” – Your claim can easily be proven false. Where in the bible does it say that water is composed of hydrogen and oxygen?

    “I contend that openness of thought is contrary to subjugation of the mind” – Agreed. Religion is very intolerant of openness of thought, hence the use
    of the word subjugation.

    “You seem to assume that God = Delusion and you (and Hawkins) cannot know that, no one can.” – so you admit that you don’t know.

    “If you would like to have a detailed discussion about all of your problems with the bible I welcome it. I’ve done it many times
    before and enjoy correcting how people have been led astray.” Okay: how is it beneficial to the human race for God to command the
    Jews to slaughter the Canaanites?

    “You have all the same evidence” I obviously don’t have the same evidence you do. Please share. Do you have a repeatable demonstration that
    God exists?

    ‘It’s quite humorous how some Atheists who fought tooth and nail saying that they “don’t believe nothing created everything”‘ – I don’t know
    what your refering to, but it’s irrelivant, since even if God did exist, God would have been been created out of nothing.

    “I cannot provide you with evidence that will be recognizable” – Evidence must be recognizable, or it’s not evidence.

    “To read the entire bible literally … would be amateur and disingenuous.” – So I am doing the right thing by assuming it’s not true.

    “Exactly. But, the fact is that I strongly care about other people and I didn’t before.” – That’s the important thing.

    “Salvation or the afterlife was not something to be earned.” – So how you act doesn’t matter?

    “To my knowledge there is no other religion out there where God came to earth as a man, solely to be an example of perfection
    (to live out the letter of the law) and therefore be seen as worthy to take our punishment. The Father died for his children,
    so that we could be saved. See my very first answer at the top of this comment.” – So you chose a religion that was romantic to you.

    • Greg! You replied! I look forward to responding after Thanksgiving! If you celebrate Thanksgiving, have a good holiday. If not, have a great weekend.

      Your well being is in my prayers. ~Jeff

  13. Jeff, I am interested in your reply to Greg… I think much the way he does, without the firm roots in the beliefs. I see your side as well and am very much on the fence. I am seeking and would like to know your answers… but it seems you didn’t provide them. :(

    • lil-lamb,
      thanks for the comment, since late last year I’ve taken on some new roles that have limited my time greatly. I’ve mostly chosen to write new posts if and when I have time. If things change I WILL get back to this. It would take a large chunk of time to properly respond, and much of Greg’s response was simply sarcastic and not worthy or even in need of a response. If you let me know what specifically you would like to see a response to I may be able to work that in. Thanks!
      Keep checking back.

  14. Thank you for your quick reply. I understand you are very busy and appreciate all the heart & effort you put into your posts & responses, as well as your ine. Many bloggers don’t reply at all, so I was indeed surprised to see that you had devoted so much here. I suppose the greatest interest I have lies in what response would be given to Greg’s statement: “A benevolent, omnipotent, all knowing God would not have to go through all those hoops (crucifixion) to forgive his creation, especially since he created the universe and all the rules that go with it.”, except that I don’t agree with labeling a God with any descriptions of our own, since, if there is a God, I doubt it is our place, our even within our capacity, to determine what makes him good, perfect, etc. Doing so, it seems, would be quite arrogant to think we are so perfect in our understanding as to judge a God (considering our definition of a God is that it is something greater than ourselves). Yet still, I wonder why it is that God would make us not only capable and prone to sin, but essentially guaranteed to do so from the start. Why is it that we are evil by nature, as some would say? Particularly if God knows all that will happen and that we would indeed sin and require His mercy.

    Secondly, his comment “even if God did exist, God would have been been created out of nothing.” also piques my curiosity as well.

    And finally, “Salvation or the afterlife was not something to be earned. – So how you act doesn’t matter?”… what of this? What if someone repents and “accepts Jesus”, but does not change or returns to wickedness?

    My two biggest questions of Christianity (ones which I’ve never been brave enough to pose to others for fear of corrupting their faith, which I respect and yearn to have as well) are: 1) why does it matter that Jesus died if he knew he would be Resurrected just three days later? It was painful, I’m sure, but what is that in relation to all eternity of worship and being a place of perfection? Many people have been tortured horribly to death but did not rise again. <– this question, I realize, you have already answered… so I would not expect another response. Your words did help me understand a little bit more but I am not "convinced" or fully understanding yet. Still, I will continue to ponder what you've said and allow everything to sink it. Who knows, perhaps it is a seed that will later grow & bear fruit. 2) as Greg pretty much put forth… why would a God create us this way- to sin and need forgiveness? I've heard it is so that we would have a choice, but it is not much of a choice if we are being manipulated, which I feel is the case when our choice is happiness with God in heaven for eternity if we surrender ourselves and beg forgiveness for sins we were destined to commit, OR burn in hell and be tortured for an eternity separated from God. Who would choose the latter IF they were clearly presented both sides in certainty, and not tempted and tricked by a supposed evil power (Satan)?

    Which, I suppose, leads me to a third question of my own. Why would we be left subject to such trickery and temptation by evil, with very little solid and provable "evidence" that God not only does in fact exist but that Christianity is the right religion to choose? How can we be held accountable with our very lives and eternal futures at stake, for a choice, when we can't possibly know without a doubt what the "right" decision is, since so much deception and human/demonic influence is supposedly battling to sway us from the "truth" (whatever that might be)? The Bible is so often quoted as the evidence, but it cannot be shown for certain that the Bible is true. It's almost like you have to believe in the Bible IN ORDER TO believe in the Bible & therefore God as well (is that called circular reasoning?). Other religions put just as much stock in their books and scriptures, and will tell you that their way is the right way. But to me, it seems there is no way to really know for sure who is right… so I feel this "battle for my soul" is a lost cause, a gamble, like Russian roulette.

    My apologies, Jeff, for such a long winded reply after you've just stated that you have little time for such things. I do not expect a reply, nor will I be upset not to get one… I think just writing these things and "putting it out there" is enough for me for the time being. I will take time to look over your other writings, since it may hold more answers for me anyway, and I do like your style and what you have to offer.

    Best wishes to you!

    • I’ve put my comments in bold – thanks for responding!

      I suppose the greatest interest I have lies in what response would be given to Greg’s statement: “A benevolent, omnipotent, all knowing God would not have to go through all those hoops (crucifixion) to forgive his creation, especially since he created the universe and all the rules that go with it.”, except that I don’t agree with labeling a God with any descriptions of our own, since, if there is a God, I doubt it is our place, our even within our capacity, to determine what makes him good, perfect, etc. Doing so, it seems, would be quite arrogant to think we are so perfect in our understanding as to judge a God (considering our definition of a God is that it is something greater than ourselves).

      You have quickly earned my respect through your wise statement above. So many seem to miss this HUGE observation in which you have grasped. It IS simple arrogance to boldly claim as fact that God is ‘this or that’ and should have done things in ‘this way or that way’…who are we to speak? But, this doesn’t answer the question…it does beg a question though…IF God “shouldn’t have to go through whatever Greg feels are hoops”, then what should God have done? I think this question must be looked at first. The usual answer is along the lines of “God should have created us differently, obedient, or something like that”… Do you see the problem with that? Freewill and choice get quickly removed, yet this is one of many things God gave us because of what I feel is His love. Even with Adam and Eve…there was a choice. One rule. Don’t eat of that ONE tree. Choice. Now you then asked:

      Yet still, I wonder why it is that God would make us not only capable and prone to sin, but essentially guaranteed to do so from the start. Why is it that we are evil by nature, as some would say? Particularly if God knows all that will happen and that we would indeed sin and require His mercy.

      I feel the whole tri-omni deal gets taken too far (omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent). I claim that if you know everything, then couldn’t you also make yourself unaware of something as well? Could God have known what would happen? Absolutely. Did He? You’ll have to ask Him. I mean really, why play or watch a game if you know the outcome. If we were made in God’s image and we dislike knowing the outcome beforehand at times, I feel He easily could have chosen not to know the outcome on some levels, but that’s just my humble opinion.

      Secondly, his comment “even if God did exist, God would have been been created out of nothing.” also piques my curiosity as well.

      Great question. Simple explanation (at least to me). We cannot put God under the same laws and observations that bound His creation. God is simply not bound in any way by the universe He created. I am not bound by the 2D painting I created, or the LEGO city I built. I don’t mean to trivialize this, but we don’t really know. All we do know is that in scripture, God is and was and will always be. The idea of Creation, is God’s. Hence, God is not bound by any sort of creation scenario. To say otherwise is to place God into the bounds of what only we understand.

      And finally, “Salvation or the afterlife was not something to be earned. – So how you act doesn’t matter?”… what of this? What if someone repents and “accepts Jesus”, but does not change or returns to wickedness?

      Salvation is a free gift that can be accepted. Once a person is truly repentant (turned from sin, from the idea that breaking God’s law is okay), then their life is changed forever. I greatly question if one ever was truly repentant if they then fall away. This scenario seems to fit the warning Jesus preached about the seeds along the road. Some fell on the road and sprung up quickly only to whither away. Unfortunately, not everyone will be saved. God says this and he also says he wishes none would be lost. Could He save everyone? Absolutely. But, then we go back up to the first question.

      1) why does it matter that Jesus died if he knew he would be Resurrected just three days later?

      I honestly can’t recall what I may have written above, but my first thoughts are this. One man can die to save another man. (ie, I could die to save my son in various scenarios). Jesus said, there is no greater gift than for a man to give up his life for his friends. BUT, only God could die in order to save everyone, past, present and future. A man cannot do that. We could talk about blood sacrifice, we could talk about His love (which was great), we could talk about the idea that Jesus was separated from the Father. Actually, I will talk about that one. If that was Jesus’ predicament then how bad must that be (separation from God)? I mean, that must be bad. A few nails through various parts of his body, a spear, some lashes to the back…AND separation from God the Father. I’m guessing that is something to not comprehend. Yet, many of us try to say that he didn’t suffer enough, and we are simply ignorant. Period.

      2) as Greg pretty much put forth… why would a God create us this way- to sin and need forgiveness? I've heard it is so that we would have a choice, but it is not much of a choice if we are being manipulated, which I feel is the case when our choice is happiness with God in heaven for eternity if we surrender ourselves and beg forgiveness for sins we were destined to commit, OR burn in hell and be tortured for an eternity separated from God. Who would choose the latter IF they were clearly presented both sides in certainty, and not tempted and tricked by a supposed evil power (Satan)?

      I don’t know about you, but I really like sin. I mean, I’m a professional after 27 years of doing exactly what I wanted to do. Sexual sin, lustful sin, lies, boastful attitude, vanity, disrespectful, me first…it all felt good, right and it put me ahead. 12 years later I just shake my head. In the midst of my sinful life, you couldn’t have given me heaven. I was in it. Church, Hell, these ideas just made me cringe because I didn’t want to leave my heaven. I didn’t need that. In retrospect, it was a great choice (choosing salvation), one in which I am very humbled that God gave me. I could have died and not gotten to the point of choice. I would have deserved ever bit of hell doled out on me. But, you ask the million dollar question…who would choose hell when both sides are clearly presented??? It seems to me that both sides are fairly clear, since we are talking about them, and 1000’s of books have been dedicated to them, etc. What is not clear? I truly feel it is that evil (Satan) that makes us somehow think that “the ark wasn’t real” or “Jesus was just a man” or “Eve ate a banana and not a piece of fruit” crap is more important that the simple concept of the choice between heaven or hell. Be honest, your mind wandered and you forgot about heaven and hell and you are now thinking about Noah…right?

      Which, I suppose, leads me to a third question of my own. Why would we be left subject to such trickery and temptation by evil, with very little solid and provable "evidence" that God not only does in fact exist but that Christianity is the right religion to choose? How can we be held accountable with our very lives and eternal futures at stake, for a choice, when we can't possibly know without a doubt what the "right" decision is, since so much deception and human/demonic influence is supposedly battling to sway us from the "truth" (whatever that might be)? The Bible is so often quoted as the evidence, but it cannot be shown for certain that the Bible is true. It's almost like you have to believe in the Bible IN ORDER TO believe in the Bible & therefore God as well (is that called circular reasoning?). Other religions put just as much stock in their books and scriptures, and will tell you that their way is the right way. But to me, it seems there is no way to really know for sure who is right… so I feel this "battle for my soul" is a lost cause, a gamble, like Russian roulette.

      NEVER apologize for asking questions. One of my favorite verses from the Bible is “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.” Is the Bible right? I can say this for sure, the Word of God is right, the Bible is man’s written record of the Word of God. In all of Christianity, the number one assumption is, the Bible is the Word of God. With this assumption in place, circular reasoning isn’t really valid since we made the initial assumption in the first place. I prefer to view the following set of data: MAPS (Manuscripts, Archeology, Prophecy and Self-Test) There are more manuscripts, pieces of ancient manuscripts etc available showing that the text we have today is the same as back in the first century or so. Archeological finds have only substantiated biblical claims and have never to my knowledge been inconsistent with what the Bible says. No prophecy has failed (yet) in which the Bible claims. Self-test. Take the “become a sold-out Christian challenge” and see if your life does or doesn’t change. You seem to be seeking. Are answers seemingly coming your way? Why did I happen to just get home from a short vacation to see your comment and then happen to have about an hour tonight to feel compelled to answer?
      I’m not sure if your studies have taken you to other religions yet or not, but you will undoubtedly find that Christianity is in the minority when it comes to earning versus receiving salvation. I cannot think of any religion where salvation is first given. Every other religion, salvation is earned, and at no time does the follower truly know they are saved…how sad.
      I know I cannot answer all of your questions, but I’m glad to have put into words some of my thoughts for you. I pray they are helpful. If I could recommend a post of mine that I feel is good for the seeker to read, try this one: http://tree63fan.wordpress.com/2008/06/04/the-parachute/
      Also, this one is for Christians, but I think you would enjoy it:

      http://tree63fan.wordpress.com/2008/05/31/sharing-your-faith-2/

      May God bless you.

    • Sorry, my initial posted reply was messed up (omitted your words), I corrected it….

  15. I just wanted to say thank you for responding- it was quite unexpected and really appreciated. Many things you said were effective and helpful. There is much for me to contemplate and consider and only a few things left unanswered or that I still have follow-on comments or questions to. I’m going to “let it stew” for awhile, perhaps come back and read things again in a few days as well as continue to seek more. Please know that the time you spent in replying was worth it; your answers were valuable. Truly.

  16. Circumcision was the mark of God on His people, before Christ came! Circumsion is no longer a requirement for God. Christ marks your heart!

    It is mutulation. They do female circumcision in countries in Africa = mutulation. Just because a doctor does it, does not make it right. They used to give women, the deep sleep (knock them out with drug) and pull the baby from the womb to deliver, because it was easier for the doctors. The removing of a part of the body (very sensitive part, the most sensitive of parts) for NON-MEDICAL reason is elective plastic surgery and should not be performed on a routine basis and should be be performed without the patient’s consent.

    Just because for many, many years it has been done routinely does not make it right.

  17. This is in the Bible but not in how man reads it but how it is meant to be read- The 8th day of circumcision was to be taken place in the physical form to cut off the sins of the flesh yes but the reason of the 8th is due to the 7 days prior! See, in 6 days God created all things and the 7th was a day of rest, which is all part of the way of the Lord. Anything after the way of the Almighty is corrupted-tainted-sinful. So, “cutting off” on the eighth day is fitting for it is when man adds to or takes from the way of the Lord, corrupting His holy way of 7days.

    • Interesting viewpoint. Thank you.
      Lev 12 is clear that Circumcision is removing the foreskin. Which was God’s way of differentiating the Israelites from the other people groups around them (all of the civil and ceremonial laws were meant to do this). Later, circumcision is written as a condition of the heart also in the Old Testament. It is not until after Jesus’ work was done that Circumcision was considered only of the heart (since civil and ceremonial laws no longer applied). Please provide me your references showing the 8th day is unholy. God himself is quoted as saying to Circumcise the foreskin on Day 8 in Lev 12. God is not unholy so I don’t see the logic in what you are saying.

  18. Also, at one time the physical circumcision was meant to be done it was intended for the higher calling circumcision of the heart! If circumcision of the flesh were beneficial, their Father would beget them already circumcised from their mother. Rather, the true circumcision in spirit has become completely profitable!

  19. You my friends were given the image of your maker and being born into this sinful world you have become unprofitable. One must be born again to become profitable. How does man be truly born again? Does it require works? Or just to believe on Christ the son of God? It has to do with belief & works, let NO man tell you different, I will show you the truth & you can test it for yourself as Jesus said- believe me not only for my words but for the works that I do!

    Firstly, man has to repent. Meaning he must recognize he sinned & is a sinner doing sinful works and wishes not to do them and stops doing them-cuts them off!
    Did you see it? There was three parts in the repentance- acknowledgement/rejection/steadfastness

    You had to acknowledge it cause you believed in the good way & you could have believed in the good way only if His holy light had shined in your heart. However, when God shines the light and shows good what will you do?
    If you circumcise the sins as Jesus had said “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine dresser.Every branch in me that bears not fruit he takes away: and every branch that bears fruit, he prunes it, that it may bring forth more fruit.”
    This is not to say you are God, because this statement appears contradictory but it’s not, cause we all know Jesus said cast your sins away, cut off your hand, pluck out your eye etc if it offends. What happens in the repentance is that God in His goodness shows us/shines light on our deeds and we are meant to do good or bad & if we choose good and “reject” our sin then God moved us to more fruitfulness!

    All that being said , yes it took belief in the “word of God” but when a man believes truly, God “the Holy spirit” moves you to cast the sin away, so inadvertently God has removed sin, not you!
    All the while man says but I forgave I repented I did good works etc. but if any good that man did do it was never him but the Holy creator & when a man repents he can see that, when he is blind he can’t !

  20. Give all glory to God, for we are unprofitable servants.

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